SPEAKER_00 0:00

You'd rather be kind of lucky than than than good. But I think you know, the harder you work, the luckier you you get. You get, you know, into somebody and then you actually realize they didn't even do the deal. You get those spidey senses, the vibe, the chemistry as to whether what they're saying is is accurate. Because every time you make a bad hire, so you're probably looking at like a year and a half, maybe even two years of lost revenue. And if revenue doesn't come in, you know, it's it's on me. Yeah, I own it. There's some life in the old dog yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Today on Tax Sales Network, we're joined by Lewis Pinner, Chief Revenue Officer at Creative ITC, a rapidly scaling managed service provider backed by private equity. Lewis spent over 13 years at Cisco, rising to leadership before senior roles at JP Morgan Chase, Pure Storage, NetApp, and Vicada. Lewis brings over two decades of experience across technology vendors, scale-ups, and financial services. Now at Creative ITC under CEO Keith Alley, he's leading sales, pre-sales, and marketing as a company expands internationally. Across his career, Lewis has operated in one of the most transparent feedback environments in the world. Every quarter you hit your number or you don't. There's nowhere to hide. He's built teams, made high-stakes decisions, evaluated hundreds of people, and watched how reputation works when everyone in an industry knows everyone else. Today we're diving into what separates the people who rise to the top, how you spot who's real versus who's just talking a good game, why your network is most important, why it's a valuable asset, and what it takes to build a career that lasts. We're also exploring why he made his move to creative ITC and his thoughts on how AI is shaping or reshaping a sales culture. This is for anyone in sales, sales leadership, or trying to understand how trust, reputation, and credibility actually work in a world where everyone claims they're winning. So, Lewis, welcome to the Tech Sales Network. Um, thank you for joining us. We'll start by talking about your career and where you're at currently. So walk us through the decision. What um what got you to creative ITC?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, and then look, it's it's it's definitely an interesting one. I've known Keith for a number of years. We both worked together at Cisco. Uh we were systems engineer and account manager many, many moons ago, flying all around the world, selling to uh a bank. Um, we always got on well, um, commercial and and technical. We both probably got a bit of commercial in us, both put a bit of technical in us, but it it just worked well and you know, been friends kind of ever since. Um always been there. We'd talk to Keith about the business, and I think certainly over the last couple of years with the investment from LDC um and kind of needing to scale the business to you know to the next level, really. So I'm gonna call it this is Creative 3.0. Um, we needed, or he, you know, the business needed um a CRO in there. So we've spent a year kind of discussing it, where the business wants to go, meeting with with LDC, meeting with with the chairman, um, and just agreeing what good looks like. So a three-year plan. Um, and really, I think for me personally, it was just being involved at a board level within an organization. I've always worked for American companies, you know, you could be on a let's say an Amir board, but you're not really in the boardroom and you're not making the you know the key decisions. Now, you know, making like the key decisions, you're part of um a board of you know, a really fast-growing organization. And actually, you know, for me personally, you know, at some point I would like to try and go for the for the next you know big job within an organization, but uh this is great.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Oh good. The um you have quite a niche vertical in the AEC market. Yeah. Is that something that drew you to them?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, I 100%. I think like specialization is kind of absolutely key. Um, you know, our knowledge of like the AEC market, the applications that exist in there, how you build infrastructure to work uh to make those applications work, to make people more productive, to give a better user experience, has just kind of stood us in really good stead. So AEC market's been great. Um, we've you know, now in the energy market as well, so we're working really well into that. And then we're actually looking at kind of like adjacent markets where you know they've got like high um let's say infrastructure needs to be able to provide, you know, that to be able to provide the applications to do their jobs. So things like automotive, aerospace industry are like some of the other markets that that we're looking at.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

You've all you've just answered my next question to be like. I was just curious to see if if you were almost going to double down on that vertical, or there was options to expand into other areas. So the the way those automotive companies, like you just said, operate, it's probably very similar to the construction companies and engineering, is it?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, they're definitely, you know, it's like high-intensity workloads, needing to keep data for you know long, long periods of time. But actually, look, we are still scraping the surface within the AEC market. We are at no means like saturated, you know. So certainly kind of in the European market that we work in, great. We've recently, as you know, expanded in into the US market, but we're we're still scratching the surface. It's a massive like TAM for us, and um, we'll continue to like really drive hard into AEC.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah, absolutely. And you just mentioned the US expansion. I forgot to ask, where is your US office or where are you based?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah, so US office is in um Houston in Texas. So, you know, the capital of like the energy markets, we've built like a really strong team out there. Um, it's like a startup, really, with within Creative. So we're taking all the knowledge that we have as an organization that's been built up over 15 plus years, and we've you know put that down into Houston and we're you know expanding out in there. It's really exciting because it it's it's like the the the good old days of kind of you know picking up the phone, going out, having conversations with senior folk within uh energy organizations and looking to see how we we can help them.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

It does sound very exciting. It's uh it probably takes you back to the early days, doesn't it? It's that like you said, it's a startup within a bigger business. Yeah. So you have that, you probably have that nice mix of you know, dealing with more enterprise or more sort of strategic level stuff in the UK, and then spending time with the US team, yeah, hands-on, on the phones, yeah, booking appointments, etc., doing the old school, if you like, I suppose, to get it to where the UK is now.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Yeah, I mean, like we we are a global company already, right? So we've got you know 12 data centers around the world, we've got a number of customers already out in the US already. Um, but actually just having that local presence and just really expanding there is is great. And if I look at like the operation and kind of when you go out, you start on zero, which is it's exciting, but it's also you know nerve-wracking because of course you've got a plan, you want to hit the plan, the investors want to see you hit the plan, it's a big investment. Um, and actually, you know, we are we're doing really well, like really pleased with how the team are doing, pipelines building, starting to close customers, um, and just yeah, really bolstering out that that part of the business.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, and it's interesting. I know we we touched on it before we started recording, but a lot of companies, uh as mentioned, that grow into other areas geographically will just go in and buy another company, acquire another company. It's interesting that you guys have started from scratch.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Was there a reason behind that? Um it is it look, it's it's a good, it's a good question. Um suppose there's no right or wrong answer, is there, realistically?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

No, but but I mean to to go out and buy a company out there looking at like tens of millions. Fair point. Whereas we can kind of go out there with a you know a much smaller budget, kind of dip our toe in the water. Um, you know, we've moved some staff over there from the UK as well. So you know, we're not completely starting from scratch. We had done you know our homework and started to build the pipeline in in the UK before we made the you know investment into things like offices and and hiring like more local staff as well. Um, but look, we we know it's gonna work out there. Um, you know, and and who's to say there may be an acquisition in the future, but I think we had to go out and organically prove it. Um you know, acquisitions will be coming, but it's um I would say it's gonna be in the European market to start with.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You moved so salespeople out there from the UK.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Probably your tried and trusted guys that you've worked with for a while. Tried and trusted ladies, yeah. Tried and trusted apologies. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, tried and trusted ladies. So they're out there being the face of creative ITC, um, doing exactly what you had them doing in the UK, just in the in the US, which is which is probably a a nice bit of peace of mind for you, knowing that you they they get the job done.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Yeah, 100%. Look, they you know they they don't need to ramp into the company. They know, you know, our process is, how we work, they know the portfolio, they know kind of you know the what the ICP is, what the kind of target persona is that they need to go and speak to within a customer base. So the ramp periods you know into the country should be much quicker. Plus, also, you know, we've hired some great local talent as well, which can help with the local market and understanding that.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

You've just looped me in perfectly to the next topic by using the word talent. Um I think the last time, the last time we spoke, or I know you've definitely used the word incestuous when when describing the the MSP or general sales market. What um what what do you mean by that? Obviously, the word is quite obvious, but is it as incestuous and reputation-led as as people think, or what, what's your opinion of it?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah, I mean, look, I'm gonna say I was really fortunate to have 13 years at Cisco. It's an amazing company, and actually my network there that I built out in that 13 years, you you know, that company, people have just gone everywhere, right? So that's that's kind of like one part of your network. Another part of your network is you know, you just whether it's the the partners um you know that that you've worked with, like the VARs, the MSPs, those people, you've kind of built that out in the customer base, you've kind of built out a network there. And then the technology other technology vendors that that you've ended up working with. So whilst the IT industry is a huge industry, like everybody knows everybody. So, you know, if someone was to kind of call you and say, Hey, what do you think about this person? Yeah, you're probably one or two steps removed from them. Um, you know, you only really give an opinion on someone that you know um and know, you know, well, otherwise, you know, I'm always the person that's gonna say, Hey, look, I don't know them well well enough. But I think, yeah, reputation is kind of absolutely key. And you know, certainly in hiring, you want to make sure that that person has got a good reputation.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

When you're um when you're evaluating talent, how do you because I'm sure obviously you've you've hired numerous people and hopefully more good than bad, of course, but you have some some bad hires, it's it's just how it works, unfortunately. But yeah, how would you evaluate talent so through so deciphering someone who's actually very good against someone who's just talking a good game? Because it's very hard. We do it every day. But from your perspective, how would you how do you try and do that? Is it like sort of reference-led? So do you lean on peers that you've seen that they've worked for before? Or I suppose like what's your way of evaluation, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

So I actually always think like a recommendation's always the best thing. So if you've got someone that's great that works for you, and they recommend somebody into the organization, to me that that that's awesome because people generally want good people within their within their company, like they want their peers to be great. But actually, like if you just start it from kind of scratch, like the CV, like that there's things in a CV where you want them to have like minimum tenures of like three years. You don't want someone that's hopping after you know less than a year or year and a half with within a role. Um so I look to make sure people aren't too hoppy. I also look to make sure that the the people are from types of companies that that we want them to be from. So, you know, that they're gonna be a good cultural fit um with us. So I think that that's kind of like the the key thing. So if someone sends me a CV and someone's had, you know, year here, 18 months here, nine months here, that that's just I'm not not even gonna meet me with there's normally a reason for it, right? Uh 100%, and everybody's got every excuse under the again under the sun to do it. And then, you know, once I know, let's just say that the person hasn't been hoppy, they come in, and then it's literally just going through a CV, like literally talk me through your journey, um, talk me through kind of like you know, key deals. So if you if you're a salesperson, you should know a deal, you know, yeah, into immense detail. What you tend to find is you get you know into somebody and then you actually realize they didn't even do the deal, they're an overlay part of the business, yeah, they weren't responsible for it. So I think that that's kind of key. And then like the other thing is it's just like you look at kind of like their performance, so you go through like all their performance statistics, and then it's like, what did you earn that year? And you you're you know, if someone's kind of done a great job, they've had consistently great earnings, they've gone to whether it's you know, presidents' clubs, chairman's clubs, like those types of things. Um, and they've probably been promoted within their career as well. Unless they want to kind of stay as an IC or they want to stay as an L1 manager, they will have seen career progression. So kind of look for all of those things and you know the the kind of things around being hoppy, um, maybe not having earned money, like you're catching them when it's the um earnings versus what what that that they've said said that they've earned. Absolutely, yes. Numbers don't lie, every CFO will tell you.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yeah, of course. The um the one thing you just meant, or two things you mentioned there that stood out is when we delve into people's GP figures, for example, and you say, Oh, I did this deal at X worth 500,000. Great. How did that work out? I did the deal.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Well, that's a quite a bit of an alarm bell for for us as recruiters. Well, if I just did the deal, okay. Talk us through it, and that's a question obviously you asked to delve deeper in, and then you realize they just did the first appointment, or they did the overlay, or they weren't actually really their deal, they just played a part in the project, yeah. Um, and then the other part is P60s. How deep do you go in P60s? Do you like their ideal? So as soon as someone says I'm not happy to share my P60, that's the the that's a red flag, obviously. Because if they say they uh they've earned X but they don't want to show it, yeah, I would assume that there's obviously a reason for that, and normally it's a negative one.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

So from your perspective, like how how deep do you evaluate? Do you go right into the nitty-gritty or do you give someone the benefit of the doubt almost, but you want to see some backup from it as well?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

So I I I think people if you've been successful, you kind of I'd like tell tell me a salesperson that isn't kind of proud and doesn't want to talk about how much that exact that they've earned. Yeah, exactly. So I think when you get to it, I mean it's just just some basic questions, right? You know, what what's what's your base? How's how's your your your salary and commission made up? So you know, let's just say they're on a 50-50 plan. Okay, brilliant. And you said that you achieved, you know, 120%. How did your accelerators work? They talk you through your accelerators, and it's like brilliant, cool. Yeah, so what what did you take home that that year? And if there's like a discrepancy, like you can work it out on a piece of paper.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Of course, it's like it doesn't actually take that much work, really, is it, does it? Because they work out their percentages plus their accelerator, yeah, take away their salary, and you've got the if there's a small difference, fair enough, you put it down to sort of they've got a leeway, really, haven't they? Yeah. But if there's 35, 40 grand, you're like, hang on.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah, and and and I think like, you know, when even when you're kind of going into it and you're sort of like talking through it, might be one or two deals that they've done in a year, talk me through those deals. And it's like a mini medic review when when you're you're in there of med MedPick now, as everyone calls it, but you're doing doing like a mini-medic review and you're understanding like how they go about selling, how they go about their customer interaction, how they go about like the detail with within a deal.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah, absolutely. And we've gone um, we've mentioned reputation quite a bit as well. So, how quickly does a reputation follow someone if if they're not delivering? Like how how many almost chances do people have within roles, like you mentioned? And this it this isn't kind of specific to the better type, the the the the you know, your more talented salespeople. This is like the the 18 months or two years, maybe 12 to 24 months job hopper type thing. How quickly does that reputation follow them and almost rule them out of the market? How long does that take? Does it on a negative side, I suppose, but just out of interest in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, I I look, I think sometimes everybody's probably got one of those jobs on their CV where it just hasn't worked out, whether it's a cultural thing, whether it's like you know, they've had all their eggs in one basket on a particular deal. And I know where my one is. Yeah, and and and and they've just been unlucky. Yeah, every everybody's had it, you know. As they say, you'd rather be kind of lucky than than than good. But I think you know, the harder you work, the luckier you you get in things. Um look, I think I will always go through and understand why somebody has has left somewhere. And then I think you know, if if you kind of believe it, and I think you you know, after a number of years of kind of doing this, you get kind of like those those spidey senses, the vibe, the chemistry as to whether you know what they're saying is is accurate. And I think that there's always like the the back channel as well. Like back channel is like really important. Like if you've made your decision on someone you think right they're a cultural fit, you've got a network there to go and kind of triangulate what what you've been told and whether that's true.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, yeah, because there's always I and I think probably in at the level that you set, if you even if you had a call from another CRO that you didn't know, you're always gonna give an honest opinion. Yeah, because there's that sort of industry mutual respect, isn't there? I imagine.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

A hundred percent. I mean, I've been on you know calls before where you know you've kind of believed everything that you've been told, and this was like you know, doing an L1 hire, and I thought, actually, I know someone over there at the company before last year's at like you never called a company that that they're currently at, and you just just have a bit of a you know an informal chat about it, why they leave. And I just got told this nightmare story, and they were like, I wish I'd known this, and they're like, Do you know such and such that he worked at before me? And I was like, Oh, I do. He's like, give him a call as well. So it's not just my opinion, and what's that there's a pattern there, and you're like, Yeah, I don't want to be a continuation of that pattern because every time you make a bad hire, it impacts like so just say it takes a year to figure that out. That's a year of like lost revenue that you've got, and then you've got to go and hire the next person. So you're probably looking at like a year and a half, maybe even two years of lost revenue for each bad hire that that you're making. And when you say it like that, is it's quite scary.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

It it it is especially if you're trying to grow.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah, just say you've got, I don't know, 12 salespeople in an organization and you make two bad hires. That's a massive percentage of your revenue that you're then putting on the other parts of the business to say, I need you guys to kind of step up and cover that.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

You need ever you need the other 10 to be overachieving almost.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, yeah. And and and that I think look, culturally, you want to set up a you know a culture within a business where people are overachieving because you know, success follows success. And you know, if it gets out in the industry that everybody's doing well, people want to be part of that journey. You know, if everybody's not doing well, everybody's struggling, people don't want to join those types of organizations.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

No, of course, and then it just affects your culture. Yep. Then you become a revolving door, and then it's then then you're in uh Uh choppy waters, I suppose. Just going back to the one thing you mentioned about the double checking through the back channel and getting a reference. Was that when you were on that call, was there anything that stuck out as an alarm bell, or was it like a just uh a sixth sense if you like to go, hang on, I should do this?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

No, they're they're they're very straight talking conversations, I think, at that level. It's no dancing around the handbags, it's really like this is what we're you know, we're proposing, this is the role. Do you think this person would be a good fit? It's literally as straightforward as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

No, but the the reason you checked, was that because of like a hunch or something the person said in the interview, or was it just no, I this is part of my job, I need to do my due diligence.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

I think you just have to, it's like a check sum, anyways, like every hire that that you make, if you've got the ability to do it, you should just do it.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. Yeah, I was just curious to see if there was something said person had said, or you just know what I'm gonna check because that's my job. Yeah, yeah, it it it it's it's it's my job.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Right, you know, ultimately, and especially here, you know, it's in it's in the title, you know, Chief Revenue Officer. I I own revenue. Yeah, and if revenue doesn't come in, you know, it's it's on me. Yeah, I own it. Um, you know, so if I'm sat in a board meeting and we're not performing where we need to perform, then that's on me.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Yeah, no excuses. The CEO or the board don't ask about the the hire, they ask you why they haven't hit target. Yeah, yeah, 100%. It doesn't go any further than you, so you you're owning the people in the board.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

They don't want the detail. If they wanted all the detail, then they don't need me.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah, yeah, fair point. I suppose on a on a more positive note, yeah, yeah, yeah. And hopefully we will be more positive. Um, in your experience, the good guys, yeah, guys and girls, when I say guys, I do refer to both. Um, but in your experience, the good guys, what do they do differently to rise through quickly? And like you see, these the big hitters come come straight out of uni and they're account directors within four, five, six years, and they've done that really progressive, successful journey. Yeah. What are they doing differently to the people who aren't?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Well, uh so, and look, I'm probably old enough that you kind of didn't necessarily have that progression that quickly when I'm when when I first started. I think it's like one of the VPs that I first kind of went under. He said, you know, you've got to do any job for three years. And Cisco is really a big believer in that as well. It's like, you know, you spend almost like the first year learning the job, you still want you to deliver on that. The second year, kind of like mastering the job and smashing it out of the park, and the third year, you know, you're still going to deliver, but you're kind of looking for that next role, and kind of that three or two and a half years, let's say, to three years really gets you the ability to go and have that next conversation. Like if you're not performing, and you know, what I've probably seen with let's say the sort of like newer generation kind of coming through is like they want every six months to see like some form of progression, whether it's financial or or job title, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Very and that's probably a sweeping generalization, but do you think the younger generation are less patient?

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yes, yeah, I a hundred percent, but also I think it is on you know us as kind of leaders to is not all of it is like a promotion in terms of right, you know, you're going from account manager to senior account manager, you know, in six months. Like it's just setting the wrong expectation. Like you can't learn a job and be really good at it that quickly. So, you know, part of it is there's a load of softer stuff that comes through with like whether it's to coaching or getting them, you know, whether it's an internal mentor or an external mentor, just making them making them the best at what they can be.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah, it's interesting you say that because uh one of the old firms we used to work for, they all of their promotions were based off revenue. Yep. So obviously recruitment, you do X amount. Yep. And these guys would come in and they go from trainee to senior within a year because they were hitting these numbers, and then what we were finding was after 12 months, these guys weren't actually senior, they were seniors by numbers, but not by um experience. Yeah, they couldn't actually go out and win a client and go from zero to the deal, do the full sales process. Yeah, they were doing the numbers, but they didn't actually know how to do it properly. They weren't senior, they've been there a year, 18 months. So they changed it, had to change it because they were paying lots of people on senior salaries for having less experience than what they needed. So it's um yeah, that it's very interesting why they changed it because they needed to then put presentations and they were almost interviewing people then to actually measure their knowledge to ensure they did actually know what a senior needs to know, if you like. Um AI in this modern industry, this modern generation now. How are you finding that's impacting people? I know we we spoke about it previously, and you mentioned that 30% is gonna be AI, um, but it's a difference between is it 30% less work or being 30% better?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Uh 30% better all day, every day. Um, I think the guys and girls that have you know learning AI, learning how to be more productive with the tools are just gonna be 30% better than than others. Like the people that I think are using AI to do less work will just always be your kind of serial kind of underachievers. Like that, but uh I think it's really exciting. Like what you used to take, I don't know, when you go into a a client or look at you know a potential target client, and you could spend days researching it. Now you can do that in kind of like an hour, yeah. And you can be really competent, really start to build out kind of like a sales campaign that you can test the water on very, very quickly. And there's just just so many tools now.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And I think, yeah, what well, what you just hit the nail on the head for an example of that 30% being better or doing less work, it would be it's taking you an hour or two to research the client. But some people will say, I'm still researching, buying themselves more time for half a day, for example, whereas that other side will go done it, bang, let's move on to the next one type thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yeah, product uh like productivity, like your your top, you know, your top 1%, your top achievers will just use this just to be more productive, yeah. Um, you know, more overachievement, earn more money, hit the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

That's took the words out of my mouth. It's that that's it, isn't it? Earning 30% more, great.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah, and ideally, yeah, and and look, and that and I'm just looking at it from a from a sales perspective, um, but you know, like deploying kind of like AI in certain parts of the company as well, I think is is like really interesting for us, and that that is a huge productivity play, and like you know, Keith and um sort of I suppose our our wider boards, you know, like we are huge proponents of it because we we we want to be, you know, we want to be the the number one MSP, we want to be kind of we're not gonna be bleeding edge because what we don't want to do is to kind of you know put our customers in harm's way, but we want to be the the leaders in this and be kind of I think the most efficient MSP that's out there.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Yeah, it's interesting because the next question was how have you implemented or how are you working with AI because it's clear that it's not going anywhere. So you have to, every business has to work with it, use it to the best of their ability, I suppose. And how does that what does that look like for you at Creative?

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Are you of course you're using it? Yeah, and and and look, it it comes from the top, right? Um, with with Keith, he's a huge proponent, you know, he's uh a serial tinkerer, is what I would say. So he's been building some you know great applications, great dashboards also um with within the organization. So, you know, we can start to measure lots of different things. Um, you know, if you can't measure something, then you can't manage it. So, you know, we've baseled all of that. Um, that's kind of key. What else have we been doing? We've actually set up a dedicated AI team in the organization. Interesting. And so we've taken like you know, through various parts of the organization, bought it all under one person, and we've got a slate of work that needs to be done where we are going to. I mean, we we've got a pretty high level of automation already, but you know, this is just taking it to the next level. Um so AI, you know, it's not a case of will we be doing it, it's just a case of you know where we won't be doing it. I mean, it's gonna be all over the organization, but in a very controlled manner, and that's why we we've set up a dedicated team for it. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

If you can't measure something, you can't manage it. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

If you can't measure it, you can't manage it.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, because there's plenty of um areas out of our business that we we can't measure too much. You can, but you have to dive really deep to be able to measure them, like uh in mails on LinkedIn. You have to go into LinkedIn, go into someone's profile, find how many messages they've send. Might be worth looking at a uh set of dashboard or something like that that sort of into one place.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

We can have a we can have a chat. So we we we do like a scoring of like each individual person with within the sales teams, including not all sales leadership, including myself, exactly like you know, how many emails we're sending, how many teams meetings we're doing, how much time we we we spend on on teams, how many meetings we organise ourselves compared to how many meetings we just attend. And you you can extrapolate kind of someone's activity. It's not it's not being big brother, right? This this is more you use it from a coaching perspective. Like if I look at our top five people that have got these called hustle score, top five hustle score, yeah. Guess what? They're our top five. Of course, top five is just no coincidence, is there? More activity, yeah, leads to more pipeline, more pipeline you've got.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Sales funnel, you're just filling it better. Yeah, it's interesting as well. You say it's not big brother, because there's two ways of looking at it. From my perspective, I would implement something like that to be less micromanagement. Yeah, because you can just go, yeah, that's fine, no worries, they're fine. Or you use it from a coaching perspective and you can then explain to people why they're near the bottom and the person who's done this is near the top. And it's in black and white, then isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah, it's it's I think like over the years, like you you get your spidey senses as to why someone's doing well or someone's not doing well. This just puts the next level of data behind it. So it becomes a data-driven discussion. So like when you're sat down with someone, let's just say that that they're not performing well, you can kind of like look at stuff and just be like, hey, look, you know, just so you know, this is our top performer, and these are this is what they do. This is what you do. Um, this is where I think you you do really well. If you could, you know, do some of this as well. This is how I think we get you to performance.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah, it's interesting. There's certainly food for thought there. Maybe we'll have a chat about that afterwards. Yeah. Do you see um early career people in their early sales career? Would you see AI as a and I like I can explain it further. Would you see AI as a a threat or an opportunity? And the reason I say that is because currently people are seeing, or AI, yeah, we have to do it. This is going to be amazing. Or do you think it would breed lazy salespeople?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

It's probably a bit of both. Yeah, it probably probably is a bit of both in there. Um I think it's a really exciting time just with the amount of knowledge that you know AI kind of brings to you. I think the people that harness it and and not become lazy with it, like you have to check the work that you produce within AI, right? You have to build, build it in the right way, coach it in the right way, put the right upfront investment in there. You know, if you put right two lines of uh of something, throw it through any of the, you know, the the leading uh LLMs out there.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Buzzword session, for example.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Yeah, yeah, and then you just send that to a to a client and you haven't checked it. That yeah, that's lazy. If you spend the time kind of whether it's you know like building an agent to do something or teaching it, you know, a lot about you, a lot about the organization, a lot about the customer, you're gonna get a better outcome from it. And then check the work.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

There's still work to put into AI to get the most from it. It's not just gonna magically give you the perfect hundred percent responses that you need to build. It's uh there's lots of words for it, but building the story, telling them what you really need the outcomes to look like, and then working with it. Yeah, um, there's obviously a laziness from it as well. Um I noticed when recently copy and pasting. Yeah. So you copy from it and moving it into an email, it goes into a text box. So when you send it from Chat GPT, it's a couple of lines over. Oh, yeah, yeah. So they're just just obvious things like that. And it wasn't one. I actually did it myself, and it was an internal email, so it was okay. Um, but we I built it out. I thought, great, this is brilliant copy paste back. Oh no, but I sent it. I held my hand up and went, sorry guys.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

But get it to use your language as well. Like it's the language, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

The language was fine. I really like what it was, but I didn't um I didn't put it through. Yeah, I just copied the text box and put it across. So I was just, yeah, where I've told everyone not to be lazy with AI recently and stuff, I've just done it myself. But it was more of a mistake than an intention, to be fair.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

But but but also as well, yeah, like you you you're good salespeople, well, any any salesperson should be out there meeting customers. And at the minute, you know, I'm not saying never say never say never, right? But um we're not sending out robots, you know, uh to go and see clients.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

No, it's um never say never, who knows? Technology moves fast, but I think that's um quite far down the line. I think.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yeah, I mean look, expenses would go down, there's no one pounding beers, but um Yeah, no, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

An AI robot to go and visit a client. Would they they'd have to meet your they'd have to meet your robot then, wouldn't they? Because you wouldn't want to meet a robot, like it wouldn't be a human interaction with a robot, would it? Well I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

I mean in in in the good old days, you know, you you you would have like uh your your sales manager and they'd say, you know, you better not leave that customer without having a without having a PO, you know, and that that sent the fear of God up in into you. Um I think you know an AI robot might take that literally. You might have a few calls from customers.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yeah, yeah, your robots just started fighting the sales floor. Great, fine. Um how you just touched then on um in-person meetings during COVID, obviously they didn't happen for obvious reasons. How valuable do you find them? Uh you mentioned obviously you're you're around London this afternoon going and meeting various clients. Yes. I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, that you personally see huge value in in in-person meetings. Obviously, you wouldn't be sat with us now if you didn't. But how for for the sort of next generation, if you like, and the younger salespeople, everything's done on team. Well, not everything, but everything can be done on Teams. How much would you put a personal being ahead of it? It it can be, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Everything can be done on Teams and Zoom. And it and it look, it's great technology, but I think it complements the face-to-face. Like when you go and meet a customer, there's just so many things that you miss on Teams and Zoom. You know, one of it could just be it's a small talk walking away, you know, and you're you're kind of built building some reporting. Um, there'll be signals in terms of you know, kind of what they're into, what they stand for, um, you know, that that you just don't get over Teams and Zoom because everybody's got a corporate background or a blurred background. So you've got no no insight about them and what what makes what makes them tick. And then it it's like the rapport. And then, you know, whether it's within the meeting, they're kind of giving you, you know, some additional stuff that they wouldn't normally give you, like you know, the CIO's told me, told me this, you know, and this this has to happen because of X, Y, and Z. People I think are just very cautious on Teams and Zoom because you know, sometimes it's recorded, transcribed, yeah. You just don't get what you're gonna get.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

And then I find this that, sorry to interrupt, I find this that small talk before. Yeah, yeah. Like it's so valuable, like the things you mentioned earlier. We never would have covered that. Yep. You know, there's things you meant, just not not because you not because anyone um gatekeeps it, but why would you? You jump on the call, there you are, bang. Let's talk about the the job rec requirement that that we're calling about, or you know, how is your travel? Stuck in traffic, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff, football teams, um, what you're doing on the weekend. A huge one for me when we're going, especially for a new client, is the office. Because people no one ever has a bad office. You've probably worked in some offices you haven't liked, as in the building. You're never gonna tell a recruiter or a new hire, yeah, but you can tell them, right, we're in we're in Broadgate Tower. Like I can say to a candidate they're in Broadgate Tower on the 50th floor, you're looking across London, it's fantastic shirt, tie, you know, belt and braces. Or they've got a really cool office in Shoreditch where you wear flip, you know, flip-flops and a and a t-shirt type thing. It's very difficult for us to gauge that through a Teams call, um, along with lots of other things, of course.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Yeah, I think like going seeing a client, especially like we we we sell IT infrastructure, you know, we we we run that for for organizations. You can go in and you can meet a customer and they can be talking you through like the challenges, what they're trying to achieve. And they might just say to you, do you know what? Would you like to walk around our data center? And you'll be like, Do you know what? That'd be great. Yeah. And you know, I've done a ton of those in in my time. But you walk around it and you can kind of see by the stuff that's in there just how bad the problem is. You'd be like, Oh, okay, I can see you've got this, this, this, and this, okay, and you're looking to do this. Brilliant. And there might even be a case of sometimes you can be like, Well, I just see you've invested, you know, a whole bunch of money into compute. And you'd be like, Yeah, you know, last year we've invested that, and that that's what makes me nervous about doing this deal. Well, that's why, you know, then we can start to look at things like financial engineering and buy back on compute, and we could potentially use some of that within our environment. Um, it's just all those cues you just wouldn't get.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Yeah, absolutely. One just sprung to mind. A client recently said, uh, you know, we've got a sales floor, and it's you know, we need to up the energy in there. I went in and met them, and they were the energy was relatively high. It was good. And I said to them, Look, you you're really energetic as a sales floor. Like, don't worry about it. This is yeah, this in comparison to lots of others, this is good. Yeah, you could see, oh great, thanks. Yeah, but like they didn't know, and we can give that advice back. Like you just exactly the same, just a different, different product, if you like. Yeah, that would never have happened in uh on a team's corner.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Well, we we I mean, we we've been going through, you know, a recruitment process of um salespeople within um within creative, and yes, look, you know, the first meetings always on Teams. Um, we do that, but I I want to meet them all all face to face. I want to make sure there's that that chemistry, right? It's a two-way interview. You could interview someone, they could be absolutely brilliant, but there's just kind of like no chemistry. We haven't really bought into one another. But what we do is we go in, you know, spend a good hour and a half with them, um, understand about them, you know, them as a as a person, what they're looking to achieve personally, you know, over their life, short, medium, long term, and then career goals, short, medium, and long term, and whether we have the ability to offer that to them as an organization and and just be really honest, right? No company is perfect. So I tell everybody the warts and alls, of like what we're working on, what we're improving, what's great about the company, and just make sure that there's there's there is that kind of absolute alignment because there's nothing worse than turning up day one, and you know, you've been sold an organization and it's like, oh dear, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

From and it could be anything, it could be anything from the environment, it could be something as little as parking, like anything. Um, but you get there and you're like really excited for your first day.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Oh, yeah, didn't know this bit, or just the chemistry, you know, it's like day one, you you've turned up and um there just isn't the chemistry and there isn't the buy-in. And and again, that creates that hiring issue because they come in, they're like, Okay, well, we'll I'll give it three months, and then after that three months, they're then spending three months looking for a new role, and all of a sudden that's affected our revenue.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

And yeah, like you said, you've got that, you've probably got another realistically three months of shall we rehire, and three months of actually hire, and like you said, you're behind then. So then you've got your the rest of your sales team doing an Extra person's target between them, but still it's not um yeah, but it all it all stems back to transparency, I suppose, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 44:10

I uh a hundred percent. And I think you know, if you I'm I'm a hundred percent bought into creative where we're going as an organization, and I'm actually really proud as to where we're going as an organization, and I want to share that with people because I want them to come on that journey with us, right? You either want to come on the journey or you know, get on the bus, or you don't want to get on the bus. And actually, we're fine with people not getting on the bus. We want everybody to want to be here.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

I love that because that's I think you mentioned that to me in our first conversation that was a few months back. I don't mind if the person doesn't want to be here. That's absolutely fine. Yeah, because we need people who are in the journey we're going on, etc. We need people who are bought in, not for three, six, nine months. We'll talk in four, five, six years. Yep. Um, and it's yeah, it's something I think that's about the fourth time you said that to me, but it's but it's really important.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Yeah, that that there's kind of like this word, you know, grit, and you want people, like it's not all going to be perfect, right? It's gonna be some really tough times, and you want to know that when you're in the trenches, you your your team, you know, your team are there in the trenches, they're not going, oh, I didn't I didn't sign up for this one. Um, and I think you know, the team we've got today, they're all in the trenches, they work hard, and I know you know we've got each other's backs.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yeah, that's it's important, isn't it? When things go because it's easy to be a good salesperson when things are going well. It's when that's that's a measure of the person, isn't it? When things are going badly, what are you like then? When when it's back's to the wall and we're against target and we're running out of time.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Yeah. What do you like then? And and and that I think look, that's all part of like I think the interview technique. Yeah, a lot of people used to use like behavioural techniques. Yeah, I think like understanding someone's character, like some of the tough, yeah, what's the toughest thing you've ever been through in life and and how did you deal with it? Right. And you get some like absolutely amazing stories from from people, and you get a real insight into their character, and you're like, Yeah, I want that girl on my team. Or that girl on my team.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Yeah, it's interesting. Would you say personality assessments, the quizzes and things like that, the crew not for you?

SPEAKER_00 46:21

No, I don't I don't I had a funny feeling that was gonna be your answer, to be honest. I mean, you know, whether you're an ENTJ, you know, whatever it may be. The colours now, I think.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yes, yeah, funnily enough, we but they do they have you done one before, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

So uh believe have we've actually got some scary management leadership um training going on at the minute for all of our like L1 managers, yeah. And last week, actually, they they just went through all the colour stuff. And uh I haven't been through it before. I was a little skeptical.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Let's just say I would um I I would recommend doing one. So I did one once. There was 20, 20 questions, yeah, four words at the top, four words at the bottom, out of the top line. Pick the word that best describes you, at the bottom line, pick the word that least describes you. That happens on 20 occasions, and it literally then just recites your personality back. And you sat there going, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Uh this is a bit witchcrafty. I I went through it with a team, I'm definitely a convert on it. Um, so yeah, but it's um yeah, you're taking people out of the business for a day, and um they're like, Oh yeah, you know, I'm the colour blue, and I'm like, Brilliant, okay, so we've spent a lot of pipeline.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Well, fair enough. Um, yeah, just a few things to close off on, really, I suppose. For the we ask the same, they are generic questions, but for for the people who are listening who are in their early days of of um of tech sales, 20 how much I won't say how many years ago you started with Cisco, but trying to build your career in tech services, tech sales, what would you give as a bit of advice now, having gone through everything you've gone through? Yeah, what would you what was the one thing, main thing or main couple of things that would that you'd pass on?

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Um, so so it's definitely a few things, right? I think um you gotta work hard, right? There's no easy rides, you know, contrary to what social media says, you're not gonna become a millionaire in six months. You you you have to work hard. If you want to work in an organization, understand how that organization works, you know, how kind of decisions are made. Um, but work work hard. Turn up every day, you know, look look smart, right? Look like you want to be part of that business. You know, don't rock up in your jeans and trainers. Um, yeah, look, look the part. Find some mentors like in the business. So, you know, who are the people that have done well, who are the people you kind of, you know, there's chemistry with as well, and you you can learn from, right? There's this is, I think, the challenge with not even hybrid working, but the whole working at home model. If you're a young person, an early career person within um the technology sector and you're working at home, you're not having those watercooler conversations, you're not getting the guidance. So when you don't know how to do something, you're sitting there trying to figure it out. And that and that that's that's great, you're trying to figure it out, but actually, you're not getting all of the experience from the other people that are within the organization. So, like get some mentors, get some external mentors as as well. Like, it hasn't got to just be people in in your company and build your network, like invest in that network, and it's not just the people you get on with, it's like going out, it's like going and grabbing that that coffee with someone like for 15-20 minutes, learn all about the organization and you know, bring in in all the different parts of that organization because when you do move up within an organization or you need something, you know, to be able to, whether it's get a deal done, get a decision made, all of those investments in relationships, they all pay off. You can just pick the phone up and people want to help you.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Yeah, you've you've built your your network over a couple of decades, and what would you how would you recommend doing it now? Same ways, same traditional ways like you just mentioned, like how would you recommend to uh to a 23-year-old coming or however old coming out of uni um to but to start building their network?

SPEAKER_00 50:37

I I don't think anything's changed. I really don't, but it's like being present, being in the office. And if something comes up to you, you know, uh they're a grad, they've just started, and they they said, Look, could I get some time? Could we grab a coffee? I'd like to understand more about the organization. I'm gonna give them that time all day, every day.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

I think half of the battle for for the person is to actually the hardest part is to ask that question. The rest of it, then it probably comes back to you.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

But I think that that that's where you you know you you be you be open, kind of have that sort of friendly face, you're approachable, as opposed to, you know, door closed in in an office. Like some of the the graduates that I've worked with over the years, they've gone on to do like amazing things, like will far outstrip what probably I will ever will ever do. And actually, they're part of my network, and and I've I've helped them in their career. Um, I'd like to think, you know, maybe maybe one day in in mine I can pick pick the phone up to them. But like that network, if I know I've helped someone, they're always gonna help you back, right? And and that's I think really important is like bringing bringing one another up in there. So if I can bring someone up on that journey, it's great.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

It's it's it's a good feeling to do. Yeah, the rule of reciprocity, I think, it is where everything's sort of reciprocal. Um, you give something, and naturally people are um sort of naturally feel like they have to give something back.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Yeah, well, yeah, I'm uh I look, and my wife always says this to me, you know, you don't you don't give to get, right? That's the you know, say here's a present, I I expect one back. It it's got to feel good, like you know, to to to be that person. And and actually, like if you see a grad or someone that's early early in career and you've kind of helped them and they've got that level of confidence, or that they've gone and won a deal, let's say, that you've helped and coached them on, it's great. I think it's a it's an awesome feeling. So, you know, you you help them on one, then the next one that they're doing, then they're coming back to you and they're they're like buzzing because they're like, Well, I've done this one by myself, and it's like that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

That's literally the reason that you were helping them in the first place almost to get that to give back, I suppose, because you've you've had it, you've had it tenfold.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

I've had some fantastic mentors, whether it's been formal or informal mentors, and that you know, have become great friends over the years as well. So, yeah, it's great to do.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

What matters the most for you when you look back over everything you've done and going to do? What what would be the because obviously you speak passionately about creative ITC, you speak passionately about giving back. What what matters the most for you if you had to, I suppose, like leave a legacy if you like?

unknown 53:23

What?

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Oh, that's uh it's a different thing, it's a good it's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Uh that's the closing question as well, so you've got time to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Yeah, I no, I I've still got years, years in the world. Yeah, fair point. We're not writing you off yet, don't worry. Yeah, but there's some life in the old dog yet. Um it it it I'll tell you what, it comes up very quickly. Yeah, like you start your career and you're the youngest person in the room, and you're the youngest person in the room for a very long time, and all of a sudden you turn up and you go, I'm the oldest person in the room. Thankfully, at creative I I'm not, you know. I've got I've got others there, but um I'd like to, you know, look look back on it, and I feel like at the minute I've worked for some fantastic companies, and there's definitely been a legacy there. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely something we are doing and building great in creative, and um where that's the legacy, I I don't know yet. But I'd like to think the things that I've touched like we've we've done exceptionally well in.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Brilliant. Thank you for coming on. Hopefully you enjoyed it as much as I have. Yeah, it's been great. Yeah, it's cool. Cool, nice one. Cheers.